Or what? What are you doing to do about it if they don’t change at all; if they’d rather lose with a lesser fascist than win with a progressive?
Correct, Biden just cozying up to Trump when he should be using emergency powers to arrest this madman who under the 14th Amendment isn’t even eligible to be President was absolutely sickening to me.
Biden doesn’t even know wtf is going on. If he does, the last thing he’s doing is trying to salvage his legacy. He’s got no fight in him.
He truly fucked us. Not saying Harris would’ve won necessarily, but having only 3 months to run a campaign against someone who’s been running for 8 years is tricky. You can see why given the number of people googling if Biden dropped out…
A legacy of “Used powers given to him by the Supreme Court to stop Hitler 2.0” would be better than “Sucked Trump’s dicker harder than Elon did.”
“The establishment party must become an anti-establishment party”
Have you all learned nothing from 2016? Democrats will rather let Trump win that let this happen.
The slide to the right is no accident nor is it ignorance. Fool me once…
Are you suggesting that Democrats want alt-right leadership in power?
They want corporarions to stay in power. The 2 parties are just flavours of capital.
Neither are for the public.
They and their donors would prefer thst over a Bernie win.
Nothing has convinced me of that more than Biden and Trump’s sudden bromance
Or there needs to be an anti-establishment party, since the Democrats can never be one.
They are the establishment. Why would they ever change? They would rather Trump win, than their easy paychecks be disrupted. You are never going to get a democrat to care about people.
well just in time for the supreme-court-approved executions of the anti-establishment politicians. imagine not getting this after Bernie had massive support despite all the efforts of the Democratic party, and after the orange cunt winning just by paying lip service to being anti-establishment…
seriously, that’s all you needed to do. not actually do anything, not help anybody. just fucking lie and pretend you give a shit about people grievances about being crushed by the system.
you couldn’t even clear that bar on the fucking ground, and lost to a cunt who’s known for firing people, not paying for anything, and shitting on a gold toilet. because you’re physically incapable of criticizing systemic oppression.
Going further right didn’t help, now we need to go as left as possible
Radical ideas like Universal healthcare, paid maternity leave, free child care, taxing the rich.
Radical ideas the rest of the 1st world had had for 50 years and successfully implemented.
What?
They are the establishment.
Thus the call to become something else; become being the operative word, meaning to change from what they currently are.
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Just like GOP refugees created the Tea Party, we need to rally around the greatest symbol of the French Revolution, and build a Guillotine Party.
Let’s call it the Rule of Law Party. One law for all of us. An end to elite impunity.
Wow, if only there had been an anti establishment candidate running for president as a democrat in 2016… too bad…
I fear it’s too late. Unless the party can be taken by force it won’t be enough and we only have 4 years. If dems didn’t snub Bernie this all probably wouldn’t have happened. Our choices used to be two flavors of corporate fascism, now it’s far right vs corporate. Dems are better on social issues, but it’s not enough.
Dems are clearly better on economic issues as well. Not nearly good enough, but better. The problem is that they will only go so far, and they won’t talk about it, out of fear of angering their wealthy patrons.
Or maybe they should just leave the Democratic party and start a new progressive party? We have less than 4 years, but that’s also the most time we’ll ever have.
The problem with that strategy is that our democracy uses a first-past-the-post voting system which trends towards a two-party system.
Then become one of the two parties.
There already are two. We must co-opt one with a populist candidate. The Republican Party was already hijacked by Trump. That leaves the Democratic Party.
Bernie tried twice, Democrats demonstrated their ability to stop that shit in its tracks. It will not work.
The only solution is for progressives to abandon the Party and start their own to replace it. The US has replaced parties before, it can be done again.
It didn’t work with Bernie for more reasons than the parties resistance. A lot of people on the left that dislike the party don’t seem to understand that you still have to join the party and get involved with it if you want the party to move left. Party members and active involved people shape where the party goes. We absolutely can shift the Dems left, but it means holding our noses and becoming the party. The Dems have always been an open door, big tent, party. Walk into the tent and change minds…
The Democrat establishment wants power and for that they have to win elections. So having an anti establishment candidate is preferable to them over a Republicans victory. If anything good came out of the last election, it is that Trump as horrible as he is can still win elections against an establishment Democrat, so the Democrats have to change.
Also changing the parties does not work. The problem is systematic and the US really needs to change its election system, to get better politics.
Third party doesn’t work. You have to do what trump did, 1 man coup from the inside.
Apparently Republican voters are gonna set the mark at R regardless of who it is, so how about having someone like Bernie run in the Republican primary.
Trump tried once and it worked. Neoliberal ideas are entrenched in the minds of Americans. Neoliberalism only allows change to the people in charge of systems as it asserts, incorrectly, that our institutions are flawless. Since neoliberals only consider changing people, it is much easier for a fascist to convince a neoliberal to change the people in society. Where as it is much harder for a progressive or a socialist to convince a neoliberal to enact systemic change or redistribute wealth respectively.
In short, people with neoliberal ideas in their head need to fully internalize neoliberalism as a scam.
Abandoning the Democrats will not result in them being replaced. They will continue to exist by moving further to the right, as Democrats like Chris Murphy have already proposed.
Starting a successful third party is mathematically impossible under a FPTP system. Third party candidates can only be spoiler candidates.
I think you mean popular, not populist, but yes.
No, I mean populist. Populism is what is popular right now.
https://www.wordnik.com/words/populism
A political philosophy supporting the rights and power of the people in their struggle against the privileged elite.
We have already seen a third party take over a major party. The current problem with the GOP is because it absorbed the Tea Party.
With the right symbol to rally behind, we can do the same thing to the Democratic party. We need to build the Guillotine Party.
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No, it’s a problem for the people empowering the right by refusing to vote for the leaning right of center, neoliberal Democrats. People are attempting to get a moral victory over the Democrats by refusing to vote for them. This strategy makes minorities the cost of doing business.
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No, the far-right exists because of late-stage capitalism and over 40 years of neoliberalism pushed by both mainstream parties since Regan. The Democrats lost in large part because of their refusal to adopt a populist narrative. They didn’t go left enough. But refusing to vote for them or espousing accelerationist rhetoric because of that is self-defeating, harms minorities, and opens to the door to devastating climate change scenarios.
ReAgan
Oh, I’m all for ranked choice voting, but in order for it to have any meaning we also need a plurality of parties. They also need time to build and I’m sure these two would start a good one if allowed.
Although the likelihood of political parties having any weight at all past January is anyone’s guess…
Without rank choice voting any progressive party would act as a spoiler for the Democratic Party. Debilitating ourselves in this way isn’t particularly useful for leveraging power to create better outcomes for the environment and minorities.
Then the Democratic Party had best make sure that progressives have no reason to split off and form their own party, huh?
Why does it always fall to progressives to get behind Democrats and never the other way around?
Debilitating ourselves in this way isn’t particularly useful for leveraging power to create better outcomes for the environment and minorities.
Oh thank god Democrats don’t throw vulnerable populations under the bus every chance they get.
Then the Democratic Party had best make sure that progressives have no reason to split off and form their own party, huh?
The FPTP voting system ensures that they do not have a reason.
Why does it always fall to progressives to get behind Democrats and never the other way around?
The FPTP voting system and entrenchment of neoliberalism in the minds of the American public for over 40 years from both mainstream political parties starting with Regan. This is may be the case for western countries and democracies more broadly as well. Currently, neoliberal ideas cause a contradiction when a person encounters progressive or socialist ideas. Along the lines of:
Why would we fix our institutions if they are flawless? What’s the hurry to solve our problems if we are at the end of history?
Some useful and correct resolutions of these contradictions are:
Our institutions are flawed because they were made by us, flawed humans. The time to advert climate change, fix systemic inequalities, the reduce the wealth gap is now. Incremental changes will run out the clock, as they don’t address the root causes. There will be hundreds of millions if not billions of causalities unless these issues are addressed sooner rather than later.
Neoliberal ideas must be pulled from the minds of Americans like a weed. Or like one of those radishes in Super Mario Bros 2. Then people will be able to embrace ideas like systemic change to institutions and wealth redistribution from the rich to everyone else.
When asked about socialism, if a person responds with ‘socialism doesn’t work’ or ‘the Soviet Union collapsed’ those are the tells that a person needs to full internalize neoliberalism as a scam.
And maybe a history lesson about how the Soviet Union was actually an authoritarian communist dictatorship and not a socialist country. The government owned the means of the production, not the people, and the government wasn’t representative of the people.
Oh thank god Democrats don’t throw vulnerable populations under the bus every chance they get.
It’s better than the Democrats intentionally murdering people in camps. Neoliberals in office aren’t going to solve our problems, but it gives us time to do the work to solve them. Like educating people and co-opting the Democratic Party in one of their primaries. Like Trump did to the Republicans and Bernie tried to do to the Democrats.
It’s better than the Democrats intentionally murdering people in camps.
The would in a heartbeat if they thought they could get one Republican vote for doing so.
Neoliberals in office aren’t going to solve our problems, but it gives us time to do the work to solve them.
Neoliberals ARE our problem. We’ve had half a century of incrementalists demanding that we just wait a little more for them to get around to moving the needle to the left, and instead they move so far to the right that they’re buddy-buddy with Netanyahu and the Cheneys. Incrementalism says “too soon” until it’s too late.
The would in a heartbeat if they thought they could get one Republican vote for doing so.
Again, don’t lie. The Democratic Party can of course move that far, but they have yet to do so.
Neoliberals ARE our problem.
Neoliberalism is the problem. Neoliberals can be tomorrow’s socialists. But we have to put in the work and educate people. My argument already refuted this point, I recommend reading it.
A few weeks ago, I’d have agreed with you, but now? The Democratic party that just lost 10 million votes… We’ll spoil that party? The one that just lost a fair election to a convicted felon? You want to protect them from being spoiled?
We have 4 years, which is, again, the most time we’ll ever get to try something like this because that’s how 4 year election cycles work. What is it exactly that they’re doing successfully you don’t want to spoil?
We’ll spoil that party?
Yes, running third party candidates in a FPTP voting system is how the spoiler effect works.
You want to protect them from being spoiled?
Because of the FPTP voting system our democracy will always trend towards a two-party system. Until we enact systemic change, we will be stuck with the Democrats and the Republicans. As long as the Democrats are further to the left of fascism we should vote for them and avoid limiting our power with third party candidates.
We the people and our interests are what avoiding the spoiler effect protects.
What is it exactly that they’re doing successfully you don’t want to spoil?
The Democrats are neoliberals. They are easier to push on social issues and the environment. The Democratic Party is the party progressives and socialists are going to want to co-opt with a populist candidate. Like Bernie tried to do and Trump did to the Republicans. But more to the point, they do not want to kill minorities and destroy the environment.
Rather than seeking a moral victory over Democrats we should look for ways to leverage power for the people Republicans want to hurt. Doing otherwise makes the harm done to minorities the cost of doing business.
I mean yes, that’s been the playbook for 8 years. More like 16 if you count what people actually thought Obama was going to be (and had record turn out). Try, try again?
The lives of millions of minorities and the Earth’s climate are at stake now. Minorities will notice the difference in the short term, but we will all notice the difference in the long term. Assuming we still have elections and a Democratic Party going forward, yes. We delay fascism and co-opt the Democratic Party. edit: typos
It’s adorable that you expect anyone to buy that the Democratic Party is movable after they just spent a whole ass year refusing to budge on fucking genocide.
The Democratic Party is the party progressives and socialists are going to want to co-opt with a populist candidate. Like Bernie tried to do and Trump did to the Republicans.
This is the key part I recommend you read.
Also, this is off topic, but Harris did pledge to end the war. It was in the news. She called for a ceasefire at least three times. If you care about the Palestinians, then voting for the party that wants to end the war is more useful than allowing the party that wants Israel to finish the job to take power.
The Tea Party did not spoil a GOP election. The GOP caved and adopted their platform.
The Democratic Party will do the same thing with the Guillotine Party.
They cannot and they will not. Please do not fall for them yanking the football away from you again. AOC and Bernie exist to give you hope and thereby capture your vote for a party that has no intention of ever fighting for the working class in a meaningful way. We need a real alternative but we’ve given away so much of our collective power (unions) that it’s hard to see a hopeful path forward. Organize with your neighbors and start building trusted communities that will fight together when needed.
Do you mean to say that AOC and Bernie are unknowingly treated as pawns by the Democrat party or that they are knowingly misleading voters into thinking the party leans further left than reality?
I would assume if anything it’s the former, and Democrat idealism has lost against the reality that a third labor party cannot take root while first-past-the-post is the rule of the game.
As the other comment says, it hardly matters. Fwiw I think they are well-intentioned but if their strategy is working for anyone, it’s working for the corporatist dem party.
Would it matter which?
The DNC insiders clearly have no intention of letting the public have a voice in the party. Having a couple socialists around is supposed to secure the vote from the left. Neither Sanders nor AOC(nor other progressives) are leaving the party anytime soon.
It’s fair to argue that splitting the party means losing to the right but the current strategy doesn’t seem to be working out either.
Sanders already left the party
So long as the Democratic Party leadership are reliant on corporate funding, obsessed with American power projection, smitten with Israel, pensive about worker rights and in lock-step with security and intelligence establishment, there is no hope. You will have on one hand a conservative party that shows antipathy and disdain for real liberal norms (Democratic establishment) and a rabid, evil party intent on reshaping America and the world to reflect white Christian nationalist fanaticism (Republicans.)
10 years ago I would have told you that the Dems are playing a dangerous game with their interventionism. Today they consigned 1 million children to starve, be blown to smithereens and die in order to enable the revenge of a leader who is as corrupt as Trump and far more bloodthirsty. Kamala calls Trump a “fascist” and gives Netanyahu a UN veto and 2000lb bounds to drop near hospitals. This is indiciative of a party that is morally rotten and cannot be relied upon to safeguard anyone’s rights.
Unfortunately our democracy uses a first-past-the-post voting system which trends toward a two-party system. This makes the Republicans and Democrats the only game in town.
Minority Rule: First Past the Post Voting
We need to leverage power to reduce the harm done to the minority groups fascists in the Republican party want to hurt. So rather than attempting to achieve a moral victory over Democrats, people on the left should do the most useful thing they can during elections for minorities and vote for Democrats.
any chance you are one of the bright consultants who get paid millions by dnc to come up with the brilliant strategies to be so dogsit that they loose to orange buffoon ?
No, I’m one of the trans people you use in your pursuit of moral victories over the Democrats.
more like you are just selfish and rich.
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Me not going quietly to the death camps is me being selfish and rich according to you, got it. Real ally. =P
death camp ? you should have said you were in gaza or westbank, my bad. yeah being rich there aint gonna help. if you were here in us, you would atleast be able to work 16 hours to be one paycheque away from homelessness.
thoughts and prayers. best we can do as we don’t care about poor brown people irrespective of gender, age or still in womb.
Unfortunately our democracy uses a first-past-the-post voting system which trends toward a two-party system
Why must one of those parties be the Democrats? I don’t see no fucking Whigs around, do you?
We need to leverage power to reduce the harm done to the minority groups fascists in the Republican party want to hurt
Democrats won’t reduce any harm. They’ll just send out fundraising emails, like they did when Roe was overturned. During this last cycle, they threw the undocumented under the bus and Democratic candidates were parroting Republican “boys in girls’ sports” hatred.
edit: sorry i was replying to to your parent comment.
No. They only hire people who say what they want to hear, which is “move to the right at all costs.”
Why must one of those parties be the Democrats? I don’t see no fucking Whigs around, do you?
Because unlike the Wigs, the Democrats are not divide over slavery. They can just move to the right on contemporary issues as Chris Murphy details here.
Democrats won’t reduce any harm.
Hi, I’m a trans person. I’m not the most at risk trans person since I’m pre-transition, but it’s definitely a case of they would if they could. I would not like to be murdered in a death camp please. Like if Democrats can’t get trans messaging right, because they suck at winning, fine. At least they aren’t trying to completely ostracize me from society and make me dig my own grave. I hope that gives a different perspective on this.
Hi, I’m a trans person. I’m not the most at risk trans person since I’m pre-transition, but it’s definitely a case of they would if they could. I would not like to be murdered in a death camp please. Like if Democrats can’t get trans messaging right, because they suck at winning, fine. At least they aren’t trying to completely ostracize me from society and make me dig my own grave.
Democrats have no concept of solidarity. None. They just haven’t thrown you under the bus yet, but they’ve let you know that they will. Their candidates have been using the Republican “boys in girls’ sports” hatred in their campaign ads.
The undocumented? Under the bus. Muslims? Under the bus. Rail workers? Under the bus. If you expect solidarity from Democrats, prepare to tuck and roll.
Democrats have no concept of solidarity. None.
Democrats have only recently been openly favorable to gay people within the last decade. Minorities have been using the Democrats to shift things to the left in this country for decades before that.
They just haven’t thrown you under the bus yet, but they’ve let you know that they will. Their candidates have been using the Republican “boys in girls’ sports” hatred in their campaign ads.
I’m aware of the messaging. That’s still not the same as a ban on gender affirming care, removal of employment protections, and the rounding up of homeless people.
Rail workers
Biden actually helped rail workers. He should have stuck with them from the start and done more, but it’s better than nothing.
The people who I would have expected solidarity from is the left. But instead I am constantly confronted by people who want moral victory over the Democrats. In this arrangement, I am the ball. Instead of kicking me, how about we leverage power to help people.
Vote for Democrats in elections not because they will fix our problems, stand with us, or even do what we want, but because it is how we demonstrate power to the fascists. It’s how we protect the people that Republicans want to harm and kill. It’s how we buy time to get a populist movement to co-opt the Democratic Party.
Biden taking credit for the work of rail workers whose right to strike he opposed is rich.
The people who I would have expected solidarity from is the left.
You want solidarity in one direction only. You want the left to worship the Democrats no matter who they throw under the bus.
But instead I am constantly confronted by people who want moral victory over the Democrats
You already got your actual victory over the left. You just want critics to shut up about it.
In this arrangement, I am the ball. Instead of kicking me, how about we leverage power to help people.
What power? The left, in your estimation, has only the power to lovingly smooch the ass of the center as they move to the right and ONLY the right.
Vote for Democrats in elections not because they will fix our problems, stand with us, or even do what we want, but because it is how we demonstrate power to the fascists.
THEY. SUPPORTED. GENOCIDE. I get that that’s a selling point for you, but some of us see that as already fascist-adjacent. And moving right from that just gets you fascism.
Biden taking credit for the work of rail workers whose right to strike he opposed is rich.
But like he did help them though.
You want solidarity in one direction only. You want the left to worship the Democrats no matter who they throw under the bus.
No, I want people to actually care about minorities instead of virtue signaling. I’m not interested in being currency in your game of moral purity with the Democrats.
You already got your actual victory over the left. You just want critics to shut up about it.
You got your victory over the Democrats at the expense of minorities, but you want 2026 and 2028 too. Well, Republicans might not even give us those elections or an opposition party at all now, we’ll find out.
What power? The left, in your estimation, has only the power to lovingly smooch the ass of the center as they move to the right and ONLY the right.
We have the power to stop fascists from taking power, killing people, and destroying the environment. We can even educate people and co-opt the Democratic Party. I recommend you read what I wrote.
THEY. SUPPORTED. GENOCIDE.
Biden supported genocide. Members of his own administration pushed back against him in open letters. You don’t care about the Palestinians. Genocide is a word you can type in all caps that you think will win you arguments on the internet. It holds no material implications with you whatsoever or you would be railing against Trump’s promise of indefinite genocide.
As someone closer to the chopping block than I would like, I am no longer phased by that bullshit. I’ve got the right screaming at me that they want me dead, and I’ve got people like you on the left screaming at me to be silent as they drag me the rest of the way there. The Palestinians are worse off now because of people like you and your virtue signaling and so is everyone else.
Your vote is appreciated. Your rhetoric is not. We don’t live in a moral universe. This universe is physics based. You acting in a way that is consistent with your subjective moral values isn’t going to help anyone. In fact, it’s going to let Republicans and other fascists all over the world run right over the people you claim to care about. Learn to analyze strategies based on their utility. edit: typo
The Democrats are the tool we have at our disposal. I intended to use that tool for as much as it can be used for. Help me.
A big issue with this approach: The United States is not a law of nature; it doesn’t have to exist. The system may only allow two options, but it does not guarantee that either one of those options will keep the system viable. Reduced harm is still harm, and at some point we needed to stop doing it.
This rhetoric is what is known as accelerationism. It’s the idea that things have to get worse in order for them to get better. The United States not existing would mean the collapse of a society that supports about 340 million people. Letting the US burn to the ground is not useful, because it doesn’t help any of the people living here.
The truth is that things get better when people learn from their mistakes and the bad things that happen to them. They then use that knowledge to make things better. There’s no bottom to how bad things can get. Things can always get worse. And they will get worse unless we work to make them better.
Anyone can be tempted by the idea that they can make things better by letting them burn. But letting everything burn is how to harm the most people possible. In order to help anyone, we need to start leveraging power for each other. That means giving up on moral victories and analyzing strategies using utility instead of moral reasoning. edit: typo
It’s not accelerationism at all! It’s fatalism.
Accelerationism is, “It has to get worse before it can get better.”
My point here is, “The system that only allows for getting worse will never get better.”
Kamala raised over $1 billion dollars for her campaign, most of which was from small donors.
If that doesn’t tell the Dems they don’t need oligarch money, nothing will.
Then they spent it on high per hour political consultants who paid Beyonce to perform
Except Beyonce literally didn’t perform for Harris?
Oh. I heard Oprah got a mil, but that could be fake
I heard Elon was born on the moon, but that could be fake too. I wish there was a way to know for sure, or at least see a small amount of evidence one way or the other.
They know that. Problem is the WANT billionaires money too ^^
That’s a mere pittance compared to what the wealthy actually spend on conservatives and messaging. That’s 1 billion dollars every 4 years. Fox news, daily wire, OANN, and all the myriad of other propaganda outlets churn through more than that a year.
Yes, but we’re not talking about conservatives.
The Democratic party has a problem, and that problem is what Democratic voters want doesn’t align with what Democratic donors want. The voters want progressive policies passed, while the donors want the same neoliberalism that keeps them rich. And trying to appease one of those groups obviously alienates the other.
If any Democratic politician truly wants to help the American population, the fact that Kamala raised so much money in such a short amount of time, and the fact that many states passed progressive policies even though they voted for Trump, should tell them that they don’t need to kowtow to the wealthy because the voters will support them. Unfortunately, I don’t think they’re going to learn that lesson.
Republicans, of course, don’t have this problem because their voters and their donors all want the same thing.
The whole point of this was asking why Democrats are catering to wealthy conservative donors instead of progressive or left leaning voters. I just stated the reason why. The 1 billion dollars collected from small donors every four years for a presidential run is nice. But it’s nothing compared to what the wealthy dump into messaging and campaigning constantly. Until such time as small donors can even come close to remotely matching that. Sustaining entire media Outlet ecosystems to counter the propaganda from conservatives. Democrats aren’t going to give up trying to get some of that wealthy conservative money
What happens to the amount they didn’t spend?
they’re in debt
Maybe if they go bankrupt we can start a new party that cares what its voters think and doesnt shit the bed so often.
nothings stopping you right now
Money, time, and connections are pretty big things you need to start a new political party.
It’s not like advertising a garage sale. I like your spirit though.
another party failing won’t make any of that easier
X for doubt on that. Im sure they’ve said that though. That’s a lot of really expensive campaign parties for a three month run
It was celebrity money, you know, the same people that were telling people they were “just like them.”
Really awesome point! I hope that becomes apparent to them
Narrator: It didn’t.
