Summary
Thai police arrested US academic Paul Chambers on charges of insulting the monarchy and violating computer crime laws, linked to remarks made during an online seminar.
Chambers, a political science professor at Naresuan University, was summoned after a complaint by the Thai Army.
He denied the charges and was denied bail, with no trial date set. Thailand enforces strict lèse-majesté laws under Article 112, carrying up to 15 years in prison.
Am in Thailand rn. He was doing research on thai police and clearly got in trouble over that. The dispute is literally him answering 1 question “whether king has more power than PM” and he said “yes” - at least that’s what we currently think is happening.
Either way thai police is been through a lot of shit rn with latest being basically thai version of Epstein killing himself in a cell and in general thai police is struggling to keep corruption hidden with such dataflow and displeasement wirh current leadership.
I’m not thai but that’s what I hear from my thai friends here.
deleted by creator
Aaaand another country made it onto the list of countries I’ll avoid visiting.
Thailand has had a weird strictness around the king for a long time now.
Fun fact about thailand. The monarch lives most of the time in the bavarian alps and the starnberger lake
I mean, this is the King. Can you really blame him?
I actually love this picture. Kings don’t need to stick to whatever us plebs think of fashion. What’s the context of this picture?
he’s Thai. it’s hot AF there.
Pretty sure this photo was taken in Germany actually.
The king spends a lot of time abroad.
Pants halfway off his ass I’d be more concerned about who else gets off the plane.
Concerned? In Thailand?
That’s like clutching your pearls over someone with pants half down in Las Vegas or Amsterdam.
Yes concerned and you should be concerned about sexual assault in Vegas as well, wtf are you even trying to say.
What the fuck are you trying to say?
Because clearly we are thinking about two different things.
It’s not code dude. Read the sentence, or means what it says. Simple as.
Aaah, I see it now.
You’re implying that he raped somebody. You know, like Trump.
No, no. I implied that he had consensual sex with somebody. And I somehow thought that you thought that was scandalous.
But I see what you mean.
Have a good night, sir.
He was getting on or off a plane as I recall. In something like 2017 or 2018.
Good thing nothing like that could happen in the good ol US of A
Downvoters don’t understand irony.
Lol I know, right?
They are literally cancelling student visas with no notice and then arresting the students
The only thing I can figure is they want to push a court case to establish precedent of no due process for ICE cases. That will open the door for imprisonment without trial, which then leads to “legal” slavery. Rent the prisoners to the farmers that used migrant labor, farmers pay what they did before, private prisons make money and get federal dollars per head, and the prisoners get more prison and work until they’re not useful, then deported
Remember when people were press-ganged into naval service? That, but no pirates
And that, friends, is why it’s important to understand that when you travel to other countries, you’re a guest, and you need to fucking act like it.
Edit: my point is that not all countries have freedom of speech, and the consequences for violating it in some places are quite severe. I’m not saying freedom of speech and expression is bad, or not worth defending. Im saying you need to understand where protesting and civil disobedience will make a difference, and which countries will treat you as grist for the mill. You wouldn’t want to do something like this in the PRC or Russia, for instance, either.
Sure, but freedom of speech should be protected from government prosecution or suppression to the extent possible - a simple concept that seems to be fading from our collective memory more and more with each passing year.
Well, the effort to make the concept a reality is mostly just a record (a historical one) and the reality is rapidly removing the implementation of it.
That makes it pretty hard to keep it concrete.
Edit: “if” -> “of”.
It’s official. I’ve caught the virus.Fire up the mixer, because we’ve got work to do.
Sure, but freedom of speech should be protected from government prosecution or suppression…
Why? That’s not fundamental to a functioning society. Its not an inalienable right.
In Thailand, a monarchy, the monarchy is sacrosanct. Who are you to tell them that’s wrong?
…to the extent possible*…
…or to the extent that society/community desires… FTFY
Don’t get me wrong, in Canada, I think speech absolutely needs to be protected. But there are still limits to that. For example, hate speech should be prohibited.
Did you know “obscenity” is not protected by the first amendment in the US? What does that even mean? It really depends on how society views things. https://uwm.edu/freespeech/faqs/what-is-obscenity/#%3A~%3Atext=Speech+about+sex+and+sexuality%2Cprotected+by+the+First+Amendment
In Thailand, they put limits on speech that include not insulting the monarchy. It really doesn’t seem that different. (And I won’t give you my opinion on it.)
The reason why free speech is a good idea is because it makes error correction possible. People come at subjects from all different angles, and inevitably someone will misjudge a subject, while a person approaching from another angle has an insight that would be helpful. In other words, people make mistakes, and if it’s illegal to point out a mistake it’s unlikely to be corrected. I don’t follow the Thai monarchy but I’m sure it’s made mistakes, and it should be legal to say so.
I’m not saying it’s a bad idea. I’m saying you can’t project your beliefs on others.
Sure you can. I think it’s wrong to murder people for no reason. I say something like “government should avoid baseless murder.” Maybe I’m offending people who have deeply held pro murder beliefs, but I’m right and they’re wrong.
I’m making a joke here, but to illustrate the principle that just because a country has some tradition or practice doesn’t mean it can’t be criticized. There is such a thing as objective reality.
And of course we have to recognize that we ourselves can be mistaken about the truth so it’s smart to practice a degree of humility and introspection when it comes to people we disagree with. Even so, I’m pretty comfortable saying that laws which imprison people for criticizing a king are counterproductive and harmful to a society.
In Thailand, a monarchy, the monarchy is sacrosanct. Who are you to tell them that’s wrong?
Anyone with a minimal understanding on how a society should work? Why should a random dude have ruling powers by birth’s right?
So I read
yourthe other guy’s edit on the original post, too, and I agree. HOWEVER, now is a time for us to stand up for principles and speak clearly about what we believe. Playing the devil’s advocate is fun, but counterproductive in a world with so many devils willing to advocate for themselves.Since I just realized you’re not the guy I originally responded too, I guess it all comes down to this:
(And I won’t give you my opinion on it.)
I’m sharing my opinion. If your opinion is the same as mine, then let’s join our voices instead of engaging in relativist masturbation. If your opinion is different, then you’re wrong and we can talk about why if you’d like.
And to be clear, I’m a relativist, to an extent anyway.
I won’t give my opinion because I don’t want it to lead to me getting in any kind of trouble, if that makes you feel any better.
But in any case, my point is you can’t project your beliefs onto others.
Except you can and projecting your beliefs onto others is the literal definition of society. You can’t not project your beliefs onto others
We are not bystanders. All societies are negotiated both within them between members and between members and observers outside. The idea that anyone should forgo their opinion on another culture is naive and asinine. You’re asking for all social exchange to stop in order to preserve an arbitrary set of rules in amber. The system you want to uphold as precious is both not real, and not valuable enough to justify the cost
Oh also, free speech is an inalienable right. In fact I’d go so far as to say learning it’s inalienable is how you learned the word inalienable. Free speech is a human right. Anyone anywhere who is limiting it is commiting a crime against humanity. The opinion of the people in charge doesn’t change that. That’s literally how inalienable rights work. So, no fucking clue what you were on about there
Also also, if you were Canadian, what trouble could you possibly get in being critical of Thailand? You’re either an insane coward or a liar for that one
Also also, if you were Canadian, what trouble could you possibly get in being critical of Thailand? You’re either an insane coward or a liar for that one
Perhaps I’m not in Canada right now. Maybe think outside your tiny little box and stop being a numb skull (see, I can insult you, too.)
Do you agree with any limits on free speech in a society?
If you were in Thailand or China and you posted what you did, you’re even more of a moron than I thought.
I reject your false framing. You’re conflating society and the government in your question.
To answer the question I’m pretending you meant to ask: No, The government should not have the requisite monopoly of violence necessary to enforce speech laws. It is a human right. Any sanction should be exclusively received from society.
Chambers, who has lived in Thailand for years, specializes in studying the influence of the Thai military, which plays a prominent role in the nation’s politics.
This is the sole reason for the arrest. Besides, why are you arguing someone who has lived in a country for years is just a guest?
Soooo… are all those Americans and Europeans that call themselves expats, uh, immigrants?
Not quite. Immigrants intend to stay forever, while expats don’t (in my opinion).
That is, if these self-called “expats” do intend to stay forever and obtain citizenship they very much are immigrants who don’t want to call themselves immigrants.
The argument is symbolic. He’s still a foreigner and will always look and sound like a foreigner. His Thai friends will consider him part of the community, but he’s just some expat to everyone else.
It has nothing to do with being a guest. Dude lived in Thailand for years as he was teaching there and researching Thai police activities. He’s clearly going down for that not for not being careful.
I couldn’t agree more. I have been to Thailand several times and make it a point even among Thai you consider as friends to just never discuss the Monarchy. I made the mistake of bad mouthing the Pope once in the Philippines.
Hardcore Catholics are hardcore.
Having said that, as someone who grew up Catholic, let me tell you FUCK THE POPE AND THE VATICAN AS A WHOLE!
Yeah I agree with you, the person who scolded me was super progressive and gay. I am not often shocked.
Misdirected social justice. That’s like defending billionaires.
Me before becoming a U.S. citizen. “I find both parties worth studying. Very interesting from a foreigner’s point of view”.
Me after, and only after becoming a U.S. citizen: “FUCK THE REPUBLICANS, THEY SUCK ARMPITS!!!”
its always westerners doing these kinds of sht. i remember one where there is avideo of an american-chinese, went to chinas yulin festival and attacked one of the patrons/sellers there because he got mad because dogs were getting eaten. different culture, respect it, even if they are questionable things happening.
Or in the US, it seems.
When in Rome, do as the Romans do.
Thailand’s lèse majesté laws are very strict. The government treats insults to the monarchy as a harm to the entire country.
Just don’t do it! If you’re not a Thai person then what business do you have with the monarchy anyway?
If you’re not a Thai person then what business do you have with the monarchy anyway?
Thats a dumb line. You should be able to criticize anyone, especially those in power
Sure but if you go to Thailand and do it you’ll go to jail. It’s well known. If you don’t like it don’t go to Thailand.
Also, while I’m not defending the law, Thais are extremely reverent to their royal family. It’s part of their cultural identity. It’s not like Britain or something where the royals are merely tolerated.
It’s such a shame when people downvote factual things, simply because they don’t like to hear them.
In this case it’s especially poignant, since the topic is about a person that censors and/or punishes people who say things they don’t like.
Meh. I think I have a personal downvoter that downvotes everything I say on principle. No biggie.
I’ve heard that from others (and thought that) before, too. But I’ve come to believe there are simply some sad, little trolls on here that are either too cowardly or lazy to comment. It’s pathetic.
Not being invested enough to engage isn’t pathetic, it’s the normal response. It’s not pathetic to not be chronically online my dude
I don’t doubt op has a stalker, but not commenting everywhere isn’t what makes them pathetic. It’s all the times when the stalker is engaging that are pathetic, not the times when they aren’t
It’s all pathetic. Devoting one’s time to following someone around just to downvote them is a pathetic way to live. It’s not less pathetic if they comment - the lack of comments is just something I’ve observed.
It seems like every 10 years or so a story like this comes up.
I remember in the 90s there was a case of a teenager who vandalized or put graffiti on a building in some place like Singapore and was sentenced to caning. There was this huge outcry about how cruel it was and such, and I remember (I was in high school) thinking that the guy was an idiot who made how own bed.
Then you get Otto Warmbier who somehow was allowed into North Korea and then decided it was a good idea to rip a post of the country’s founder off the wall.
The lesson? Know where you are. When you’re not in Kansas, then don’t do Kansas things. Consequences are different in different parts of the world. It’s really easy to be a respectful traveler.
Yeah. Sometimes I think people are so used to media (TV, movies, video games) and the distancing effect of being in a vehicle (looking out a window at people) that they’re actually capable of travelling to another country without actually believing that they are there in person.
Apart from stories like this, there are countless other stories of clueless travellers who walk around treating locals like NPCs, not really realizing how annoying and offensive they are. These big blowback stories are just the tip of the iceberg on that whole genre of stupidity.
Someone else in this thread said he’s basically been set up / framed because he fell out of favour with the police. Another well established no-no in Thailand.
Just don’t do it! If you’re not a Thai person then what business do you have with the monarchy anyway
What if you’re part Thai, or specifically, one part of you is Thai? 😆
or specifically, one part of you is Thai?
I’m imagining a scenario like with Ray Gillette from Archer, where a non-Thai person gets a robotic hand prosthesis that uses skin from a Thai person, making only that specific part of them “Thai.”
Sorry. Just some shitpost trans humor. One part of me is Thai! Well, made in Thailand at least.
No need to apologize! That’s a cool self-fact. :)
Americans get really upset when people go to the US and do things like they do in their home country, but also expect to be able to act like Americans in other countries. It’s a little arrogant or ignorant. Some people who who were even invited to study in the US have been deported for doing things that Americans do themselves, like protesting.
Whittle this story down to its core and you have, “guest in country breaks law and gets punished”. Is that really surprising? How about, “guest in country exercises rights of citizens and gets punished?”
The thumbnail reminded me of that legendary Kimchi slap scene.
In USA academics are kidnapped and disappeared for protesting genocide.
And what does that have to do with this case?
Any info what the “insults” consisted of?
