GRRM gave the showrunners his notes on the last two books.
Now he famously doesn’t do traditional storyboards, he’s a very organic kind of author. He makes a character in his head, puts them in a situation, and just writes what they would do, and everything flows from there. But, every story does have to have a beginning, middle, and end. So the major plot points have to be written down somewhere.
You know how Jon turned into an NPC who just kept repeating that he didn’t want the throne, pretty sure that’s a major plot point that was in the notes. The note was probably “Jon doesn’t want the throne” so that’s all the dialogue the writers gave him.
There is a decent chance that season 8 was a beat for beat execution of George’s notes, white walkers invade, Jon unites the north and with Dani and they defeat them, march on kings landing, Dany descends into madness and burns down capitol, story over.
If that’s really how it’s ultimately going to pan out, I can see GRRM not wanting to release it after seeing how fans disliked the ending. I think fans disliked the execution of the ending more, but I can also see how disheartening it would be to get a glimpse of how people would react to the ending of a story you’ve been writing for almost 30 years, and finding out that it’s almost unanimously hated.
I agree. That could scare any author. Especially with the spoilers of the showrunners giving away your major plot beats.
I don’t think there’s anything that’s unsalvageable about those major plot beats, they just have to be earned, which the showrunner is completely didn’t do. But I think you could make each beat make sense, with time, structure, and motivation, most importantly the motivation. Which GRRM is famous for doing, so I have every confidence in him
I’d heard that part of the reason he hasn’t finished the books is that he’s looking for a reason for Dany to go back to Westeros. She’s got a wealthy kingdom and three dragons and a Dothraki horde and the Golden Company, so what’s her motivation for going to Westeros when she could more easily conquer huge parts of Essos.
Essos is clearly the prize, westeros is a side show… like the UK vs Europe… But if you want to conquer Essos you can’t leave your western flank open, you have to secure westeros before you can move your military eastward.
If her arc is freeing more slaves, and starts to look east, she has to wrap up the West. We could motivate it by showing diminished supply lines going east, and the logistical trouble going east. Have some harassment from the iron Islands, some piracy, continue to assassination attempts from the Lannisters, The iron Bank refusing to bend the knee - and funding competition, motivating a need to secure the West and put in place a hand of the queen so she can focus on the east. I think you could sell it as a good story
Update - I now realize, The Dragon queen is in Slavers bay / Dragon’s bay, in the freaking middle of Essos, so everything I wrote above doesn’t apply. There is no good reason to leave her empire and travel HALF the world away, skipping all these other kingdoms and leaving your rear open, with huge logistics and supply issues. Abandoning a perfectly good, and GROWING, power-base to secure a side-show because its where they killed your dad doesn’t make sense, ESPECIALLY because the targarians only went to westeros “recently” and they are originally from Essos anyway.
She should expand her free slave empire slowly westward, and eventually secure a strong path to Westeros before the Dragon throne plot can happen, other than revenge, there is no urgency in recapturing Westeros
You had me in the first half, but I agree with your assessment in the second. It would be like the Roman Empire deciding that all they wanted was Britain and never conquering Gaul, Spain, or Greece.
White walkers take total control north of the Wall, and the nights watch/king in the north are having SERIOUS issues keeping the wall in good repair, some white walkers are able to get south of the wall and take over northern castles and strong holds… maybe we introduce a mechanic where the ice-zombies are slower and weaker in warm weather, so this initial incursion is a PROBLEM but not the end of the world, but as winter comes, this becomes more urgent.
Snow/Night Commander hears from the meisters that there are dragons in Essos, and that Fire Dragons are a great counter to the white walkers… Things are dire, he sends ravens/and proxies to Essos to BEG for a dragon but this is ignore/rebuffed since the Dragon queen is perfectly busy in Essos Thank you very much.
After HEAVY losses, HEAVY, perhaps a breach of the wall, Snow goes in person to Essos to beg for dragons as the only possible way to save Westeros. Bran/Mr. Whispers know he is a targarian and do some subplots to prevent them from finding out, plot, plot, plot, In Essos the queen meets snow, they have conflict, dragon fire can’t kill Snow, they both discover they are related… Maybe Snow has a better connection/control of the dragons, something to make the Queen to consider him a huge threat. Queen of Dragons gives Snow a single dragon to help with the wall, and sends him away so she can focus on Essos plots with the promise that Snow will help her claim revenge on those who killed her Dad (lannisters).
Dragon is pregnant, but nobody realizes, goes to the wall, fights, gets converted to a Zombie dragon and lays eggs, the last possible dragon eggs, which the Dragon Queen must come and rescue before they are born (Ice / Zombie dragons threaten Essos as well as Westeros)…
Now we finally have a motivated reason for the Dragon queen to abandon her empire on a side quest, which puts her and her other dragons in Westeros so she can be part of the winter battle, melt the iron throne, etc…
(I just finished a rewatch of the show, so I’ve got some ideas in my head still)
GRRM gave the showrunners his notes on the last two books.
Now he famously doesn’t do traditional storyboards, he’s a very organic kind of author. He makes a character in his head, puts them in a situation, and just writes what they would do, and everything flows from there. But, every story does have to have a beginning, middle, and end. So the major plot points have to be written down somewhere.
You know how Jon turned into an NPC who just kept repeating that he didn’t want the throne, pretty sure that’s a major plot point that was in the notes. The note was probably “Jon doesn’t want the throne” so that’s all the dialogue the writers gave him.
There is a decent chance that season 8 was a beat for beat execution of George’s notes, white walkers invade, Jon unites the north and with Dani and they defeat them, march on kings landing, Dany descends into madness and burns down capitol, story over.
If that’s really how it’s ultimately going to pan out, I can see GRRM not wanting to release it after seeing how fans disliked the ending. I think fans disliked the execution of the ending more, but I can also see how disheartening it would be to get a glimpse of how people would react to the ending of a story you’ve been writing for almost 30 years, and finding out that it’s almost unanimously hated.
I agree. That could scare any author. Especially with the spoilers of the showrunners giving away your major plot beats.
I don’t think there’s anything that’s unsalvageable about those major plot beats, they just have to be earned, which the showrunner is completely didn’t do. But I think you could make each beat make sense, with time, structure, and motivation, most importantly the motivation. Which GRRM is famous for doing, so I have every confidence in him
I’d heard that part of the reason he hasn’t finished the books is that he’s looking for a reason for Dany to go back to Westeros. She’s got a wealthy kingdom and three dragons and a Dothraki horde and the Golden Company, so what’s her motivation for going to Westeros when she could more easily conquer huge parts of Essos.
Essos is clearly the prize, westeros is a side show… like the UK vs Europe… But if you want to conquer Essos you can’t leave your western flank open, you have to secure westeros before you can move your military eastward.
If her arc is freeing more slaves, and starts to look east, she has to wrap up the West. We could motivate it by showing diminished supply lines going east, and the logistical trouble going east. Have some harassment from the iron Islands, some piracy, continue to assassination attempts from the Lannisters, The iron Bank refusing to bend the knee - and funding competition, motivating a need to secure the West and put in place a hand of the queen so she can focus on the east. I think you could sell it as a good story
Update - I now realize, The Dragon queen is in Slavers bay / Dragon’s bay, in the freaking middle of Essos, so everything I wrote above doesn’t apply. There is no good reason to leave her empire and travel HALF the world away, skipping all these other kingdoms and leaving your rear open, with huge logistics and supply issues. Abandoning a perfectly good, and GROWING, power-base to secure a side-show because its where they killed your dad doesn’t make sense, ESPECIALLY because the targarians only went to westeros “recently” and they are originally from Essos anyway.
She should expand her free slave empire slowly westward, and eventually secure a strong path to Westeros before the Dragon throne plot can happen, other than revenge, there is no urgency in recapturing Westeros
You had me in the first half, but I agree with your assessment in the second. It would be like the Roman Empire deciding that all they wanted was Britain and never conquering Gaul, Spain, or Greece.
Forget the iron throne, iconic but a distraction.
White walkers take total control north of the Wall, and the nights watch/king in the north are having SERIOUS issues keeping the wall in good repair, some white walkers are able to get south of the wall and take over northern castles and strong holds… maybe we introduce a mechanic where the ice-zombies are slower and weaker in warm weather, so this initial incursion is a PROBLEM but not the end of the world, but as winter comes, this becomes more urgent.
Snow/Night Commander hears from the meisters that there are dragons in Essos, and that Fire Dragons are a great counter to the white walkers… Things are dire, he sends ravens/and proxies to Essos to BEG for a dragon but this is ignore/rebuffed since the Dragon queen is perfectly busy in Essos Thank you very much.
After HEAVY losses, HEAVY, perhaps a breach of the wall, Snow goes in person to Essos to beg for dragons as the only possible way to save Westeros. Bran/Mr. Whispers know he is a targarian and do some subplots to prevent them from finding out, plot, plot, plot, In Essos the queen meets snow, they have conflict, dragon fire can’t kill Snow, they both discover they are related… Maybe Snow has a better connection/control of the dragons, something to make the Queen to consider him a huge threat. Queen of Dragons gives Snow a single dragon to help with the wall, and sends him away so she can focus on Essos plots with the promise that Snow will help her claim revenge on those who killed her Dad (lannisters).
Dragon is pregnant, but nobody realizes, goes to the wall, fights, gets converted to a Zombie dragon and lays eggs, the last possible dragon eggs, which the Dragon Queen must come and rescue before they are born (Ice / Zombie dragons threaten Essos as well as Westeros)…
Now we finally have a motivated reason for the Dragon queen to abandon her empire on a side quest, which puts her and her other dragons in Westeros so she can be part of the winter battle, melt the iron throne, etc…
(I just finished a rewatch of the show, so I’ve got some ideas in my head still)