We can criticize Israel, while condemning Hamas terrorists
And we can make aid to Israel contingent on future improvements on the treatment of Palestinians.
(And prosecute the IDF and Israeli state in international Court for crimes against humanity)
I like this, we should do this, for sure. Nobody can claim it’s unfair.
At this point, I would argue that Israel has done more for Hamas PR and popularity than anything in the last 20 years.
I was pissed off at Israel when I learned that we can’t have a single-payer Health Care Program because we are too busy funding the one Israel has. Learning how they treat Palestinians just puts a seal on the fuck Israel deal.
Israel is a little bigger in area and population than the SF Bay Area. We don’t lack single payer health care because we are paying for Israel’s. We don’t have it because our government is in the pockets of those who benefit from us not having it.
Oh I understand that, but I do despise the hypocrisy that America Rejects single-payer healthcare claiming that they can’t afford it, but they are willing to fund it for people who are not our people. Charity is one thing, but foreign aid should never come at the expense of One’s Own people. While I understand the situation is bigger and more complicated than that, and that most foreign aid is just code for funding military operations and bases, it’s still irks me that a single Cent is being given out in foreign aid when we have people who are starving and dying on the streets.
I would be all for America first if it actually meant anything outside of a racist dog whistle.
There is absolutely nothing the US does in regards to foreign policy that comes at the expense of accessible healthcare. The US already spends more per capita than any other country.
Because individual purchases (bandages, pills, hospital bed rental) costs over twice as much in the States than it does anywhere else. And those who do afford it get inferior care.
Breaks your heart doesn’t it?
The US actually spends more public money on healthcare per capita than almost any other country. And then Americans pay for private insurance on top of it. And for all that, many Americans don’t even get healthcare. Contrary to libertarian propaganda, a publicly funded program is more efficient, as are many publicly funded services over their privatized alternatives.
Well obviously, a public refunded program seeks only to fulfill the goals of the program. Meanwhile a private organization is not beholden to customers or workers, but to shareholders
Fun fact: We also built a single-payer system in Iraq.
We can also condem israel for creating this entire situation
Blame the British and the holy scrolls.
the same israel which offered countless peace offers to the Palestinians(which promptly rejected them) or the same israel that literally pulled out of gaza entirely leaving them the full option to make a thriving city state like Singapore, but instead they decided to buy guns and rockets and make everyone’s life miserable?
I mean, I suppose if you ignore all history up until like a few weeks ago that makes sense.
Do you think if Hamas dissappear tomorrow, those who throw garbage will stop?
The reverse. If the garbage throwers stopped, if the Israeli state ensured that Palestinians were treated humanely and were ensured civil rights (say in accordance with the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights) then Palestinians would have no need for revolutionary organizations like Hamas or Hezbollah. But so long as the Israeli state disregards the suffering of Palestinians, so long as Israelis are allowed to commit violence against Palestinians, so long as the IDF seeks to massacre Palestinians, there will be need for militants to fight against them, and so Hamas and Hezbollah will find cause and find recruits among the friends and family slain in Israel’s name.
The thing is we all know this. This is COIN 101 material from two to four centuries ago. And short of the threat of nuclear holocaust, humans historically are eager to hate more than they are willing to do what is right to create and preserve peace. Netanyahu and the IDF have demonstrated to be no different, even when the US warned them of its own hard-learned lessons in Fallujah. Gaza is proving to be even worse than was predicted.
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And why do you think they hate Jews?
Because of how Israelis treat them.
That conflict may have lasted 70 years, but those citizens certainly haven’t.
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For the last 2500 years, the Jews have been the bad guys. That’s why they’re worthy of hatred
Speaking of naïve…
The internet has demonstrated the people of seperate nations don’t hate each other intrinsically, but are driven to hate by rhetoric and doctrine fueled by precarity or adversity.
Regardless, my prescription comes from classic COIN philosophy, not identity politics propaganda. Besides, if bullies — those with the capacity to decide whether or not to cast garbage on thosr weaker than they — continue tonharm when they choose to stop, it is their behavior that fuels hatred and justifies their reputation.
Plenty of jews are kind and even protest the IDF offensives. But those who toss rubbish on Hebron Palestinians are showing a different character.
It’s not black and white.
If the elements of Hamas, namely the promising of death to all Israelites from Palestinians disappeared, then relations would improve and yes the garbage would stop. But it would still be a process that takes time to build trust between the people.
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I don’t agree with your analogy.
What I said was more along the line of, “America electing a black president is a major step to eliminating racism, and it wouldn’t happen overnight.” I’d point out that I’m just fixing your analogy, not that I am making that statement.
Part of the systematic change requires one side to not want the complete elimination of the other.
Remind me how did the the reservations in the US go for people like the Osage even after they signed treaties? Oklahoma is still Indian country, right?
You’d have to be braindead to believe that. This is a 70 year ongoing conflict.
Ted Kaczynski made a lot of really solid points, but bombing people, especially civilians, is wrong.
People still cheer for Luke Skywalker though.
Humans are more tribalistic than rational. They pick sides and justify later.
The Death Star was a military installation that had already shown itself to be aggressive with death tolls in the literal billions. Not a fair comparison.
To be fair, Tarkin misused what was clearly a mining tool. Planets are too valuable a resource to blast into high-velocity debris. The Tarkin doctrine only works if Imperial policy is fair to begin with (which it isn’t) otherwise it is the reverse of common COIN theory (hearts and minds).
Tarkin behaved stupidly and provoked a terrorist attack that successfully (and spectacularly) disabled a huge Imperial asset.
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Yeah I never understood that about star wars, like why are they so keen on blowing up planets. I know that’s an incredibly evil thing to do, but what the hell did they get out of it?
I actually like the sequels, but the fact that every threat had to be a planet destroyer, despite the fact that that makes absolutely no fucking sense to anyone trying to establish long-term dominance over a region, just made no fucking sense.
I think Lucas was simply looking for a nuclear analogy or something comparable to the carpet bombing the U S did in Vietnam and Cambodia. It needed to look like it made sense.
That said, the Death Star is easy to retroactively justify. There are plenty of planets / dwarf planets / large rocks that have tasty minerals in their core, and are not otherwise usable for settlement or even an outpost. A super-laser would be a great tool at lower power settings to crack such rocks open to save on drilling, much the way hydraulic fracturing is used today. If the Imperial government is more inclined towards military spending than civilian projects, it then makes sense to sell it as a Mother Of All Lasers wrap it in a mobile space base.
That’s how it goes in my headcanon, but like the IMPS videos, the troops are allowed to put sexy nose art on their mechanized armor.
Yeah but the second time it wasn’t even finished yet. They were still under construction.
It was pretty clear what the purpose of it was.
And Luke didn’t have anything to do with the second Death Star being blown up. That was Lando and Wedge.
EDIT: I guess he helped getting the shield down. They wouldn’t have gotten the Ewoks on their side if Luke didn’t levitate Threepio.
I’m just saying, a construction job of that magnitude would require a hell of a lot more manpower than the Imperial army had to offer. I’ll bet there were independent contractors working on that thing.
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We can condemn violence, while recognizing that it didn’t come about in a total vacuum as people play it up as to paint Palestinians as evil terrorists.
Correct. Hamas is an evil terrorist group that slaughters innocent people and also Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinian people and need to stop, or be stopped. But not by killing random people, because this isn’t the bronze age anymore.
No, seriously - give me a good reason to condemn Hamas. As long as they are the only ones willing to lift a damn finger against a white supremacist settler-colonialist state they will receive no condemnation from me.
this combined with the orders from IDF that under no circumstances were celebrations or signs of joy allowed when prisoners were returned to their families; fucking ghouls.
prisoners, why were they prisoners again? oh yea that’s right becuase they were literal terrorist
do you want examples? maybe the women who drove with a full gas tank into an israeli border checkpoint near Jerusalem and blew up half her face as well as a police officer’s face and chest - asra jabas, look her up
Opposing Israel is not the action of a neo-nazi, it is the action of someone who is disgusted by Nazis.
The situation is being framed as the false dichotomy of “Pro-Israel” or “Pro-Palestine” when the real distinction is “Pro-Israel” or “Pro human rights and international law”.
We simply cannot abide by the Israeli idea that the Israelites are a people so much better than anyone else, that they are allowed to dictate who is just and who is not period They have become the very Nazis that persecuted the Jews back in the 40s
so Palestine is pro human rights and international law??? need i remind you of the failed rocket launch (aimed at israeli civilians) that misfired, hit and killed many Palestinians at the hospital in gaza??
That’s a perfect exemplification of the logical fallacy I mentioned! Thank you.
Calling Israel’s apartheid “modern” to me kind of implies that South Africa’s apartheid, whose transitional period ended in 1994, was somehow “ancient” or “old-fashioned”… Yeah, you can rest assured that apartheid/segregation always has been far too modern.
I mean… It ended. Almost 30 years ago. So it’s not happening in the modern day.
“ended”
30 years was so long ago.
Flip phones, PAY PHONES and pagers!
That’s how long ago it was.I agree as I do not consider my IBM PS/1 25mhz system to be a modern computer.
I own a flip phone now, I pay with my phone and pagers are alive and well at the hospital I work at. Just saying…
I was thinking about this recently and it won’t happen given the current climate but what Palestinians need is their own Truth and Reconciliation just like South Africans did. Codify that shit.
Truth and Reconciliation
As a South African I wouldn’t recommend it. We essentially allowed all the murderers, torturers and rapists to get off scott free so that “business as usual” - ie, the looting and pillaging of South Africa’s mineral resources - wouldn’t be disrupted too much.
We literally have gigantic gaps in our history because the Nat regime was allowed to perpetrate one of the largest orgies of evidence destruction in known history while the TRC wasn’t even allowed to subpoena people to testify about anything - and now we still sit with a white population that sees no reason to confront what was done in their name and are pretty much still just as white supremacist as their grandparents were.
It’s only a solution to the liberal types that want to sell feel-good propaganda and little else.
My GF is Zulu and she’s pro T&R so I imagine YMMV.
I can definitely understand your position.
From a layman Canadian where our indigenous people did the same thing it’s only as powerful as the weight and teeth it’s given.
I have a 2200 AMD Sempron running windows XP for nostalgia. This computer is by no means a modern PC. No one in their right mind would consider it modern. Yet it was originally manufactured after 1994. By your logic, it is a modern PC.
Something can be “not-modern” without being ancient.
I mean, if your measure of modernity is just how good home computers were back then, rather than that any substantial number of people had home computers at all, then of course 1994 is going to seem non-modern.
I guess I have a skewed perception of how long ago 1994 was, though, because 1995 was when my parents first came into contact with each other from opposite sides of the globe, through the ol’ information superhighway. For me that makes 1994 seem incredibly recent, even if it was nearly 30 years ago and a lot has changed since then. The '90s were this whole decade of pop culture, technology, and political and social change whose shadow I grew up in, basically the beginning of what I would consider in most contexts to be the “modern day”. But if I had actually been alive and conscious at the time, then maybe I would be more practically aware of the differences between then and now, and hesitate to call it “modern”.
But modernity always is relative. If I were talking specifically about computers, then obviously even a computer from as recently as 2008 would really be stretching the definition of “modern”. But then in another context I might even say that something that happened in 1898 would’ve been “recent”, though I wouldn’t necessarily refer to that as “modern” per se.
Put another way, an apparent slim majority of the world’s population (but not of South Africa’s population) was alive when Nelson Mandela took office. Probably a lot of them were infants or small children at the time, but still: even for the people who weren’t alive at that time, or who were too young to really remember it personally, there are so many people who were very alive and very conscious at the time, that everyone’s bound to know a good few. My mom attended anti-apartheid protests when she was in college, for instance. Mandela himself was president until 1999, and only died in 2013, which it’s hard to believe was already ten years ago.
Disgusting. Imagine you are walking around minding your business and a Zionist throws his trash on your head.
Israel treats Palestinians worse than animals.
Garbage and rocks. Don’t forget rocks
https://youtu.be/aEdGcej-6D0?t=8m56s
Fuck israel. All my homies hate israel
How in the fuck would one do something like this and still consider themself a mensch?
I was being rhetorical, but the answer is dehumanization, which is the height of irony considering how Israel came to exist in modernity.
Israel is a product of European Colonization. It predates WW1 and WW2. After learning more about it, IMO it shouldn’t exist as it does today.
Jews and Christians and Muslims lived in the area since the religions were invented, we don’t need a European colony to still exist.
Israel has a right to defend itself.
I don’t get the point of trotting out this old chestnut. Is anyone arguing that Israel does not have the right to defend itself?
No. The concern is the manner and proportionality of the defense. Both of which are barbaric and over the top.
Okay Boomer.
Is it too late to say I forgot the /s?
Nah, not your fault. The sarcasm was quite obvious.
Nah, it sounded like a typical comment from a closed-minded Israel supporter so yeah too late.
What do the palestinians throw back?
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Nah fuck this shit. Murdering people who were celebrating love and music is inexcusable. I have so much affection for the electronic music scene and the peace and acceptance it promotes. A lot of those people were probably tripping on psychedelics. What a horrific way to go. Fuck Hamas.
According to google, the population of Hebron is about 215,000 of which approximately 600 are jews. This post is a lie.
This comment below has some good context and explains why the comment above is disinformation:
