Japan has been in the year 2000 for the past 50 years.
Not the first time I see this, still makes me laugh
Why the fuck “cash society” is backside? It means they care about privacy.
Not taking cash = backwards.
Not taking digital payments = also backwards.
suggesting crypto?
They’re just suggesting that you should accept both cash and electronic payments.
that sounds weird though. is he suggesting that one should be fed to a tree? eff that.
I’m not responding to that comment?
Get fed right to the joshua trees.
what
Yes
ugh you suggest i should be fed to a tree?
Yes theyre hungry
The post isn’t about privacy, if it was, faxing wouldn’t be on there. I’d wager a strong guess it’s about convenience on one hand while choosing to be inconvenient on the other.
Edit: or maybe it’s more about high tech in some sectors and low tech in others, still not about privacy.
Because a piece of highly debated governance structure, manifest as a piece of technology was put on the “bad” list, (by accedent?) implying the old way is out of date and switching is as much of a “you dont need to think, its just better” (no brainer) as switching your floppy disks and CRTs for USB sticks ano OLEDs. Tech advancing is usually but not a definite good thing.
Why privacy would mean no fax? Fax is mostly more secure than email.
Fax is unencrypted. Encrypted versions apparently exist but that’s not what Japan and Germany use.
And that aside my mom regularly gets sensitive patient data via fax at her workplace because the number is one digit off some doctor’s (bonus points for the inverse also happening, and her also working with sensitive data). Far less likely to happen with email. At most encrypted fax is equally secure.
Most emails are unencrypted. And indeed, in the medical profession, they were widespread. Nothing can protect from the sender putting in the wrong number or email address. I’ve received some seriously sensitive emails not meant for me because the people made typos and the recipients had the same family name as me (not sure how the email server decided it was close enough and delivered them to me).
I’ve also read for some businesses, it was critical to get an instant receipt that the fax has been properly received.
Now, I’m not defending using obsolete fax machines, it just had one advantage over email but today there are much better alternatives and dedicated platforms.
Most emails are unencrypted.
No, they are not. They are not end-to-end encrypted but they are encrypted between your PC and your service provider, between service providers and between service providers and receivers. End-to-end encryption is needed to defend against your service provider or entities that can order your provider around but not against random hackers snooping around in your network.
Fax on the other hand is never encrypted and also not signed, so there is no integrity protection. Fax is far, far less secure than even standard email. Businesses require fax often for legal reasons because laws are written by people with no technical understanding not because of any technical reason.
No, they are not. They are not end-to-end encrypted but they are encrypted between your PC and your service provider, between service providers and between service providers and receivers. End-to-end encryption is needed to defend against your service provider or entities that can order your provider around but not against random hackers snooping around in your network.
This is true AND untrue at the same time! It’s true that most e-mail providers will talk to other e-mail providers with TLS, but it’s trivial to downgrade the connection in most circumstances. If you can man-in-the-middle e-mail servers you can just say “hey, I’m the e-mail provider you’re trying to talk to, I don’t support TLS, talk to me in plain text!” and the senders will probably oblige. There’s a few standards to try to address this problem, like DANE (which actually solves the problem, but is unsupported by all large e-mail providers), and mta-sts which is a much weaker standard (but supported by gmail and outlook). In practice there’s a good chance that your e-mail is reasonably well secured, but it’s absolutely not a guarantee.
That depends on the specific TLS setup. Badly configured TLS 1.2 would allow downgrade attacks, TLS 1.3 would not. I highly doubt the “in most circumstances” line, my guess would be that at least the big ones like gmail don’t allow unsecured communication with their servers at all. If not for their users’s privacy, then at least to combat spam.
It is however point-to-point plus doesn’t go over a public network and the routers of “random” 3rd parties (as IP does not necessarily route your packets always via the same path, and NNTP - the e-mail protocol - is even worse).
Faxing is probably is inherently more private simply because generally there is just 1 company controlling the entire network it travels through (i.e. the phone landline network), though I would hardly call it secure.
Properly encrypted e-mail is more secure with regards to the contents but it leaks metadata (that there was a message of a certain size from a certain sender to a certain receiver at acertain time) to a lot more 3rd parties than a fax would.
doesn’t go over a public network
Your fax just went over public telephone network.
and NNTP - the e-mail protocol - is even worse
Wow, I haven’t seen NNTP in ages. Who still uses newsgroups? And how they even use it for email?
Yeah, you’re right - it’s SMTP not NNTP. Considering that back in the day I used to telnet to port 25 of my uni’s server to send e-mails portraying as one of my teachers to take the piss of my friends and hence knew at least some of the protocol, I must be getting old to confuse the acronyms.
But yeah, the main point is not the network being “public” (in the sense that anybody can access it) it’s that - as I explained but you seemed to have missed - the intermediate hops for an e-mail travelling on the internet can be owned by just about anybody and, worse, not necessarilly in your country working under local laws - routing will often send things around in quite unexpected tours on a physical sense depending on network topology - whilst the nodes the fax data travels on a phone network are generally owned by just 1 company or 2 (the latter in countries with multiple landline providers if you send it from a phone in one to the phone in another, as the network topology is much simpler and all providers connect to each other directly).
If your data goes over at most only 2 networks owned by very specific companies it is inherently safer from eavesdropping that if it goes over an unknown number of networks owned by an unknow number of companies. This is not the same as saying it’s “safe” - it’s just one relative to the other, rather than an endorsment of faxing.
Also there are usually laws around eavesdropping on phone calls, from the old days, whilst it’s the Wild West out there when it comes to those operating intermediate nodes eavesdropping on e-mails.
Frankly, if you can’t send the data encrypted, then faxing is probably safer from a privacy point of view (it would take a crooked telecoms operator risking their license, a Court Order or physical access to eavesdrop on it), but if encrypted e-mail is safer at least content-wise, though as I pointed out plain e-mail with unencrypted headers leaks meta data even if the contents is encrypted.
to send e-mails portraying as one of my teachers to take the piss of my friends and hence knew at least some of the protocol
Nowdays client-server and server-server communication is ecrypted and signed, so no an issue now.
not necessarilly in your country working under local laws
Scary part when they do
fax security is de facto nonexistant
Because phone numbers and plain text.
And money recycling.
Suuuure, “privacy”. Wink wink.
I’m a criminal! Wank wank, nudge nudge
Question: do the Japanese actually care about privacy? I know I do, but if you were to ask a Japanese person why does their country use cash, would they say “We have considered a system of payment cards and decided against it for privacy reasons” or would they just shrug and say “I dunno, I’m not in charge of payment systems, I use what I have”?
Not necessarily. It might be privacy but it could also be a combination of other reasons too - a cultural aversion to paperless transactions, a lack regulation for electronic payments, lack of a decent indigenous payment system, lack of financial safeguards, prevalence of fraud / skimming devices etc.
Some European countries were more into electronic transactions than others but with stuff like SEPA, chip & PIN, contactless payments I think most people are just fine using electronic payment unless they have reason to control the transaction in some way. For example I usually pay pretty much everything electronically but I still pay taxis and most restaurants with cash. Also tradesmen if they’ll give me a discount for cash.
I used to work in a shop when I was younger, and the older generation always asked for “cash discount”. Why on earth would we do that, my boss said to me. We need the money to be in the shop’s bank account, not laying around somewhere and not being used.
I remember carrying several 100k of our money, late at night, to our banks night safe and drop it in. That sucked. And they charged us for this too
Cash is off the books so there is an incentive for certain kinds of businesses like tradesmen to take cash because it still works out cheaper since they don’t have to declare it to the taxman.
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Cash is traceable in most countries for decades now. Cash doesn’t mean privacy.
Cash is king, we shouldn’t be paying MasterCard and VISA for every purchase we make.
Case in point: when the UK left the EU, MC and VISA immediately increased their transaction fees from 0.3% to 1.5%.
Cash isn’t much use for making purchases online, which is also where an ever increasing amount of spending is done.
There’s no coin or note slot on my laptop, and contrary to the internet’s advice throwing money at my screen doesn’t seem to work either.
I used to be a big proponent of cash but with the bulk of my financial activity happening online now I can’t help it feeling a bit redundant.
Cash is needed nonetheless because when there is a downtime for whatever reason, it is not good if the only thing you have is a card.
Mullvad lets you mail them cash, but I don’t think it’s scalable nor fast enough to be widely used.
The last time I sent cash in the mail was in the early 00s when buying CDs from ebay. Wild that there is a service today that takes cash via mail.
They do it to make it as anonymous as possible
Retaining some ability to spend and use cash is vital because otherwise, all our financial transactions are totally controlled by the banks, and they are completely untrustworthy. The cost is inconvenience.
Yes that’s fair enough, cash doesn’t work online - but bitcoin is a better solution for online transactions than cards.
I mean, we haven’t even got into the subject of data tracking. If you think Facebook is bad, consider for a moment how much your card provider knows about you. Banks and card companies have learned from Facebook, and data brokerage is now a trillion dollar industry - with only 8 billion people in the world (many of whom don’t use the internet or have data being traded), that means your data is worth roughly $1,000 a year. Surely, as the manufacturer of the data, you should be getting some of that?!
Lol Bitcoin is not better than cards for online shopping, the only thing it’s better for is buying whatever you’re smoking.
Objectively, bitcoin is better for online transactions. It’s not even all that safe for buying drugs - every transaction is recorded permanently in an open ledger, so it’s actually much easier to trace (at least up to the end points where traditional currency is exchanged).
It might be less widely accepted, but that’s only because of how insidiously endemic MasterCard and VISA are.
How is bitcoin objectively better? That’s a pretty bold statement that needs some backing arguments.
They both have pros and cons, but until BTC have garanteed near instanteneous transaction confirmation, I don’t see how that would work at the grocery store for example.
Bitcoin is objectively better based on the way it works. Subjectively, with the established infrastructure behind it, traditional card payments are artificially better - purely because of convenience. But on a level playing field bitcoin works better and is less susceptible to negative influences.
The grocery store is not typically an online transaction. I did specify online transactions. For buying groceries online, bitcoin would be better - there are no fees when trading bitcoin. When trading cash, there are no fees.
When putting cash into a business account, there are fees, and as almost all businesses put their money into an account they pay these fees. These cash deposit fees and card processing fees have grown in such a way as to entrap nearly all commercial transactions.
Objectively, it’s better if there aren’t fees, particularly when the fees are not proportional to the actual service the fees are supposed to represent.
That’s a weird take. A system is better because it’s free?
I re-read your comment and I missed the fact that you said online buying, sorry about that.
One advantage of traditional CC over Bitcoin is buyer insurance against fraud. If someone gets a hold of your Bitcoin wallet, he can take out everything and you have no recourse.
If someone steal your credit card and make fraudulent purchases, the transactions will be cancelled and you won’t be left on the hook.
bitcoin is a better solution for online transactions than cards.
Aaaaaand now you’ve lost me.
Aaaaand how?
For one, Bitcoin is inefficient and energy intensive technology.
Just saw a sign in my bakery today begging people to pay by card because getting small coins from the bank is hard and expensive.
TBF here in Belgium Bancontact has a local monopoly (about 1 % flat fee, no fixed cost per transaction; that seems fair and intuitively cheaper than holding, insuring, depositing cash, dealing with employees skimming off the top, of the time lost counting bills).
Also the government heavily incentivizes electronic payments because those can’t be pocketed without paying VAT. That’s a MONUMENTAL amount of tax fraud being chipped at by the progressive disappearance of cash.
That’s the real crux, banks charge businesses to deposit cash. They do it in such a way that there’s no way to escape their ever-increasing fee percentage.
The mattress solution is more and more appealing, imo.
Also the government heavily incentivizes electronic payments because those can’t be pocketed without paying VAT. That’s a MONUMENTAL amount of tax fraud being chipped at by the progressive disappearance of cash.
Unfortunately I think the amount of cash tax fraud that exists is far more reasonable than the amount of straight up fraudulent, yet “legitimate”, expenditure that governments allow. See, for example, covid PPP loans.
Write offs, PPP loans, deferrals, and all the other accounting tricks that the government carved out for the primary benefit of the wealthy are definitely a bigger loss of tax revenue. One guy writing off a personal vehicle for his personal business is probably what a busy restaurant makes in 4 months of cash purchases. Suppliers and distributors are also unlikely to deal with large volumes of cash just as a matter of practicality and risk, and the fact that you can’t have a functioning business with employees that need paychecks without going through banks which go through the government, unless you’re operating with an entirely under the table staff which is just begging for trouble.
Seems like an easy fix for a business, just change their prices so that they don’t have to use coins. Make everything an integer number of dollars. If the items are too cheap to round up, encourage a three for two deal or something like that.
Sales tax doesn’t change that frequently. It’s easy for a business to predict and account for it when setting their prices.
… the euros’ lowest paper bill is 5€. 1 € and 2€ coins are bulky pieces of shit too.
And a bakery is the worst affected kind of business even if there was a 1€ paper bill. A loaf of good bread is 1.40€, if you round up it’s way too expensive and if you round down they may not even make a profit. Can’t exactly buy 3 loaves of bread either unless you got a family of 6 to feed.
Unfortunatley that won’t work, banks charge businesses a percentage for deposits.
The people insisting on using cash are the ones with a big pile of it, with origin dubious to unknown. Anti tax evasion is the best part of digital banking. Threats to privacy is the other side of that coin unfortunately…
Honestly there should be governmental electronic cash with the same advantages as cash, i.e. no fees & no traceability.
there are very easy free bank accounts to open.
Traceability is the tricky part.
The cost of a bank account has nothing to do with fees for electronic cash. Fees for electronic cash are collected per each transaction and are paid by the business you buy from. These huge fees are why businesses are slow to adopt electronic cash in Germany, they see no reason to pay 1%+ of their revenue to Mastercard or Visa or whatever.
You… are not an adult, are you?
Mastercard and VISA are not banks and don’t offer bank accounts.
Bank accounts are free. Transfers to and between banks are free.
That 1% fee you’re talking about is a processing fee from the credit card companies, which are separate financial institutions acting as middlemen to the banks.
There is no need to use their services. You can just transfer bank to bank for free, with free bank accounts. No MasterCard or VISA involved at all.
You… do not know what thread I was replying to, do you?
What is being talked about is high fees associated with each transaction done with electronic cash. Please read the comment I directly responded to again: https://lemm.ee/comment/6705330
It is necessary to use their services (or at least some other entity collecting fees) when you pay without cash in a store. You can’t go to a store and pay with direct bank transfer.
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Also, PS: this comment I wrote a while back: https://lemmy.world/comment/5658808
I dunno, there are good arguments for traceability. Bitcoin has complete traceability, up to its endpoints.
Re: credit card companies: you’re right, and you’re not the first to say it.
South East Asia is pissed off at them and their fees too. Starting in Thailand (but spreading) their big banks got together and made a QR code system for instant sending of money (similar to what Australia did with PayID which obfuscated bank account numbers with your own phone or email address, and stacked with Osko, a fast transfer system to bypass the slow (days) bank to bank transfers).
You will see street vendors with food carts with a QR code on it. You want to buy something? You order, they say the price, you scan the code, send the money, show your phone, get your food.
(You can have codes with the payment amount already in it, like in a bill, but since this is just a food cart on a sidewalk, they just have one generic “pay me” code)
Because they are bank to bank, it’s all fee-free.
And yes, in the USA you have Venmo and similar, which has other issues, I think.
In the Philippines so many people use pay-as-you-go and prepaid phone plans, and load up their account with credit, they’ve gone further. People could gift credit to other people for a long time. Now, you can actually pay for things with your phone credit there. (GCash, which confused me for a Google product for a while). There’s only two mobile/cellular phone companies in the country (all the rest are resellers), so it has some monopoly issues. But what it means is since everyone has a phone (doesn’t have to be a smart phone. A nokia style dumb phone is fine), you don’t need cash or to pay VISA/MC.
Cash is garbage. Using cash electronically is good.
Using credit card companies is dubious.
If only there was some way of federating spending in a way that would make private credit card companies obsolete. I’m still confused how no one sees any future in block chain and just say “it’s all a scam”.
Block chain has become a buzz word, just like AI or NFT’s, but they sure as hell makes some people a chunk of money before everyone realises what it actually means.
because it doesn’t work. case in point: it hasn’t. It improves on one aspect, and regresses (very very badly) in every single other aspect.
Here in at least the state of California (not sure if this is country wide) those bank “convenience” fees are limited to no more than $1.50 by law.
Are you talking credit card fees or bank transaction fees?
That fee charged for simply using your debit card at a POS.
Electronic is faster, more convenient, safer, easier to track, and doesn’t need a stupid purse to carry around.
Haven’t touched cash since 2020, couldn’t be happier.
No thanks
I don’t pay them. The business conducting the transaction does :p
You mean, the fee is already baked into the sticker price, so you’re paying it regardless of which payment method you use.
Ya
Cash society is a bad thing since when
Psyop to make people think that electronic is superior.
Since forever.
I think someday we will look back and consider if taking everything digital was ever the right choice. Friend always uses the term, “high tech downgrade.” The more I interact with the internet the more I learn how it pushes the limits of our society in not so great directions.
I think the opposite can be said too. t’s pushed society forward in so many great places as well.
I’m not saying there should be no internet. I am only saying maybe some restraint would be advantageous for everyone.
Thing is, the Internet at its core is just a vastly interconnected network. That’s it. All the effects of the Internet are direct consequences of that fundamental property, and time.
The technological architecture that supports the complexity of modern civilization? The direct consequence of interconnectivity × time. QAnon? The direct consequence of interconnectivity × time.
You can’t restrain the bad without crippling the good.
the Internet at its core is just a vastly interconnected network.
Nothing about what you said invalides my point.
Not every human transaction has to be made over the internet. Other technology’s are sufficient and do not cripple society.
You can’t restrain the bad without crippling the good
That part. “People should…” is an impotent sentiment. How do you incentivize, or force, a regression to “sufficient” technology? How do you do so without affecting beneficial network technology?
By learning from the past. See, in your mind you’ve already established all technological advancement is beneficial.
I think you might be misinterpreting my point.
Everything evolves as a wave of extremes and eventually finds some sort of equilibrium, trying to contain that is a fool’s errand.
Sounds like your own personal philosophy
Or a new normal… paved roads and cars in the US was once pretty extreme, until it became normal. Did you be it’s grownup and tell it to go to bed on time, did you make a futile effort to stunt its growth or did you roll over. Story of the frog in boiling water.
Ever notice how some roads aren’t paved?
I agree.
Nah
Ok… good talk.
Why are you responding to me on the internet?
… why don’t you have reading comprehension?
Maybe it’s the Internet. You should show some “restraint”.
because Reductio ad absurdum is easier than confronting hard truths they don’t want to accept and possibly risk firing off a dreadful thing called a “thought” in that inert mass of jello they call a brain.
Digitizing some things, like medical records and rare texts, have been extremely useful.
Digitization of records in general is extremely useful.
I think the problem was that technological advances were faster than social ones. We ended with new ways to control people, and new forms of inequality.
Many of our problems with technology are rooted in a company abusing from their power. Even the troubled ways we communcate online today are a product of how bigh tech manipulated social networks.
The Internet is great. It connects people. I learned so many things even I lived in a small town in a third-world country.
But ads, scam, and 15-second videos are bad. The current Internet is nasty and not as beautiful as it was.
Two sides of a coin, I suppose.
Germany is the same but without the bullet trains and the robots wiping your ass.
Guess I’m the only one in the thread that hates cash. It’s filthy and messy. Much better to just beep my watch and move along
The one thing I don’t like about digital payments is that so far, they’ve all been owned/controlled by various major card processors, like Visa. That control really gives those processors a dominant position and basically free money.
This. I love how much easier it is to manage digital make-believe numbers, than tons of leaflets and pucks that represent make-believe numbers.
I just wish the system that handled it was more… democratic? Instead of corporate feudalism with credit scores…
You mean like a cryptographic, decentralized, digital currency?
Loved the idea behind satoshis. Even tried it out. Even made a little money and got out before it all crashed.
It was an interesting concept until all the mega-grifters showed up to make it yet another speculative commodity to fuel their insatiable gambling addictions.
I consider myself pretty knowledgable in lots of computing topics but even I felt very shakey at the sheer paranoia required to keep digital currency safe. (Assuming it doesn’t suddenly become worthless overnight on its own).
I can’t imagine normies navigating that. And using paypal or a bank or something put you right back at “not your coins” anyway.
Personlly, dumping 100% of it all at once purged a LOT of anxiety.
Plus, accounts are readily trackable on public ledgers. Not very private as soon as various means are deployed to know your public account.
The thing that saddened me most was seeing how much freaking energy and technology was thrown on the pyre of make-believe numbers. The “metaverse”, web3, the fact NFTs even happened. Hardware shortages whenever some new coin figured out how to store a hash on it. Super sophisticated scams everywhere…
If anything it was definitely a psychological experiment to see what intangible nonsense even entire nation-states would devote massive resources to instead of feeding or housing people.
Not to mention the huge mess with constantly changing laws and taxes from officials who struggle to send emails.
Plus, and finally, it was supposed to democratize money unlike fiat currency, but it was worth fiat currency, so the a-holes hoarding all the fiat currency just gobbled up all the digital ones too and tried to sell it back to us.
Maybe we’ll get something better in the future.
I really just don’t care. The ATM you got the cash from gets a cut of the fees. It’s all corporate bullshit anyway
I really just don’t care either, Ill just pay who im forced to, 1/10th of my paycheck (it costs them pennies to make) or I could randomly die. It’s all corporate bullshit anyway. /s
I really just do not care, Ill just take out a loan I cannot afford so I can stop playing chicken on crosswalks and avoid dieing to that driver who is on their phone, not paying attention. Its just human bullshit anyway. /s
glad we can agree!
As opposed to using debit or credit, which is also owned and controlled by all of the major credit card companies.
No, as opposed to using cash.
Cash should always be available and accepted, but personally I absolutely avoid it unless absolutely necessary.
I can’t remember the last time I used cash too buy something.
I only use cash to buy things from people in my area.
And there’s no recompense or tracking if someone robs you or it gets stolen, it’s error-prone and slow (especially people who insist on giving exact fucking change…)
Because theft of money via credit cards is a thing thats never happened.
It’s much easier to roll back a fraudulent electronic transaction, than a fraudulent cash transaction.
Yeah, my credit card is just a buffer for my actual cash. I buy. Something happens, maybe a defective product, and merchant is being a piece of shit, I just disoure that shit. With cash, that’s it, you are done.
That being said, here I am, new cars in the mail because somehow it was compromised and someone wanted to buy some junk in Ohio I guess. So there’s definitely the inconvenience associated with that. But when young Dozzi92 was an idiot and lost his wallet, carda get replaced, but missing cash is missing cash.
Yep. And my Apple Card rotates its number automatically so even if my number is stolen it just vanishes after a while. Technology!
Oh yeah. Maybe it’s because I’m still in the just-got-my-first-credit-card phase, but damn I love that little piece of plastic. I’m clumsy and suck at using cash, but I feel so graceful with a card.
What is this comment? Who talks like this?
A 12 year old
As soon as I could pay for things with my phone, I did. Now I’m annoyed when I can’t.
Agreed. I think cash should always be there as a fallback. But 9/10, I prefer to use card because cash is so dirty, and is harder to keep track of.
If I go to my bank app. I know exactly how much I have. Whereas if I keep cash in my wallet, I have to count it all out and keep track of it in my head. I don’t like that. It’s just more awkward for me.
Yes but how do you pay your prostitute? I’m surely not in the mood to explain my wife what’s that $200 transaction on my card from a MELINDA TEEN at midnight that day I was supposed to be late at work.
the fuck is wrong with you
You don’t pay for sex? You must be a communist!
Fuck off troll
Thank you, you too.
Watch is more convenient, it’s also insanely insecure. Watch out for NFC scanners in public.
This is just pure bullshit scare tactics. In order to successfully make a transaction, I have to have my watch facing me, double click the button, and then hold it near the terminal for a few seconds. There is no way someone could just swoop in and do a transaction without my knowledge. It’s bullshit fearmongering like this that makes people scared of new features like NameDrop. Quit it.
Sounds inconvenient! I take it back. Secure yes. Convenient no.
In my experience with my Apple Watch you have to activate the wallet functionality in order to pay for something by clicking the side button twice, which should make it harder for somebody to just walk around with a terminal charging random people. Phones usually need to be unlocked to make payments too. In theory NFC credit cards could be scanned like this, and if you’re worried about that you can look into NFC blocking wallets… I’m not super worried about it, though, because usually you wouldn’t be on the hook for such a fraudulent charge.
Apple is smart enough to design the feature in a way where the user has to know and approve the transaction. Dangblingus is a fucking idiot
Use credit cards and just report fraudulent charges
Everyone who is saying there is nothing wrong with cash is right. However, there is one major drawback to cash which is no longer a big problem in societies which are mostly cashless. Namely, if your wallet gets stolen and you have $300 in it, you’ve lost that $300 forever. If your wallet gets stolen and they get your cards, you can just cancel them and aren’t even charged for fraudulent purchases.
I realize that means less privacy, but I can’t afford to lose that kind of money just walking to the supermarket to buy groceries.
They solved that problem by having no thieves lol
I was just in Japan and how safe it was blew my mind.
This sentence makes me laugh. Where are you from?
Probably Detroit
Argentina, unfortunately.
For me, the main drawback is rather than you need to get to a machine to get your physical money pieces regularly. Sometimes you run out, there’s no machine, or you have no time to find one, and it can put you in troubles, like being stuck in the middle of transit or getting at the cashier and realizing you don’t have enough.
Valid point. But I assure you if you lose your wallet in Japan with $300 in it (because, statistically, nobody will steal your wallet), you’ll find it at the police station next day.
(That’s the most statistical thing that can happen, please do not try.)
Went there on vacation recently and my girlfriend left her luggage in an elevator and forgot it for 15 minutes. It was at the police box a block over.
Finally a positive post on Lemmy!
I had my wallet stolen years ago, within an hour someone had purchased thousands of $$$ worth of MacBook pros from the Apple store.
Don’t lose your debit card!!! The bank doesn’t do charge backs!
how?
they would need a pin for that, for contactless payment there is a limit, I believe 200 euros in my country.
so did you write your pin down on a paper and put it in your wallet or do you have your money stored at a terrible bank?
I don’t know about elsewhere, but in the US you can run a debit card as a credit card without needing the pin. Pin is only required for cash back.
You also won’t have that money to spend if the power goes out.
Manual credit card machines have existed long before electronic ones.
That’s just absurd. Who the hell has one anymore? Not to mention they require the card to be embossed and not all are anymore.
You can literally write down the number on a piece of paper and a price and let the bank know or enter it manually when the power goes back on. This simply isn’t a problem unless society collapses and if that happens, cash will be worthless too.
I’ve worked in multiple retail stores and not a single one of them would do that. If the power went out, they lock the door. So that absolutely doesn’t work in the short term.
Long term? Idk, how long can you hold out w/o spending money?
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If the power goes out on a global scale, you won’t be able to spend cash either.
Wallet in a cashless society? Are you stuck in the early 2000’s?
Now, cashless means Phones+NFC, which means when your wallet, a.k.a your phone, gets stolen you get taken somewhere until you allow access to your phone and banking apps where there should be an easy 10~30k in savings + loans they can extract
GG
People have savings? Sounds like the 90s.
You think people don’t have and use credit and debit cards anymore? Really?
“Taking you somewhere” is far too much effort. They can just watch you enter your passcode on your phone in a bar, then swipe your phone from you and gain access to all your accounts.
Where you getting the 10k figure, and how many people do you know who would have thay on hand.
im gonna press X to doubt that you carry $300 to the grocery store, let alone that you carry that much groceries by hand while walking home
Yeah homie I dunno there. I’m in Quebec right now and it’s extremely rare for me to get out of even a simple grocery run for less than $200. I could easily carry home 300 dollars worth of groceries, even buying mostly generics.
$300 is not at all unusual for groceries these days if you have a family.
It is not hard to rack up $300 in groceries where I live. I’m lucky to walk out w/o spending at least $100 for my smaller trips.
And that’s just for me.
$100 is my weekly beer bill.
You put paper filing and cash society on the “bad” list. It’s like it’s wrong for people without an internet connection or privacy conscious people to file stuff. “Pls use our brand-spanking new web UI that loads a shit ton of Javascript and steals your data on top of it!” Oh and cash society. No, why would anyone want to pay in a privacy-conscious way. Naw man, pay with a card…
With a way less harsh tone, I agree with your first point. Credit cards magical for the user but are full of deamons that they cant see just by using it. I’d prefer a cash only society to one where a private company controlls all access to money. Hybrid is alright but makes the situation maluable (in my country, because of the card, some compamies will make it hard or refuse to take legal tender).
“Pls use our brand-spanking new web UI that loads a shit ton of Javascript and steals your data on top of it!”
You derailed your point, biggest thing you can do right now is use ublock or noscript. Pull as much money as you need in cash and live off of it instead of using your card.
It’s not about having the option, I love having alternatives. It’s about 90s ways being the only choice when they could have better options. E.g. You need to send a form. It’s already a pdf file, send it by email, right? No, it has to be physical mail… or fax if they have a number. Oh, and you have to stamp on it. No pdf. Multiply that by time constraints and local bureaucracy mixed in.
Oh, another fan of living in a stone age.
It’s a downgrade if you can’t choose the stone age way. And with things like physical cash that downgrade is pretty bad. I don’t want a record of the 15€ my friend gave me for stealing the bathroom key last time we were at McDonald’s.
Cash is traceable for decades now. Don’t worry, everyone knows what you’re doing.
As someone who filled out multiple copies of the same contract by hand to buy a house recently, which had to be stamped with my seal and not signed, AHHHHHHHHHHghgghhg. On average, I only have to fax something once every several years. NTT, the main telecoms provider, STILL requires that you fax paperwork to get internet (at least for NTT East as of two years ago).
Using cash is great (except for my airline miles account), but one of the biggest banks in Japan is notorious for outages. ATMs here also, until very recently, had business days and hours. That’s finally mostly gone, at least. They can still run out of money at the year-end holiday season as everyone is home with family and they’re not always restocked in some locations, but more ATMs also helped to solve this. The problem with things transitioning to electronic payment is also those payment processors take a cut. We have all kinds of payment apps here, but many small businesses I know hate using it. The ones I know that use it most generally have larger foreign customer bases (anecdotal to business owners I know; may not be generally true in all of Tokyo/Japan).
FAX machines is still a thing in 2023!
America’s healthcare system still lives off of fax machines
As a German -Homer disappears in hedge
We only have a bit of the first panel (technology wise) and all of the bottom one
What’s bad about cash?
Cash is fucking awesome
Slow, messy (in both senses: unclean and bulky and disorganized), inconvenient, heavy (coins), easy to lose / be robbed of / have stolen, no recompense or tracking if that happens, easiest to counterfeit, do I need to go on?
Change / coins are pretty annoying imho
i think the issue is more that people don’t really understand what is good about cash and what is bad about the alternative
and the economic and societal reasons why cash is vastly preferable.
Nothing. It must be great. My weed dealer accepts nothing else!
It stresses me out giving the cashier a math problem to solve. I know they can a calculator, but still.
That’s specifically a USA problem only. In the rest of the world, the price you see is the price you pay (not inc. restaurant service fees, etc, which are more BS exported from the US)
There is zero reason that the price sticker on a shelf or menu shouldn’t be what you actually pay. It’s not like online shopping where they need to calculate shipping based on distance, or tax based on state of the receiver. And there is no reason they couldn’t even put both prices on the sticker.
But in America, they do it for one reason: capitalism. It’s a marketing scheme. Makes you think you’re getting a better deal and paying less while you shop, so shoppers tend to spend more.
It’s why fuel costs $2.19 ^99/100
Because that’s seen as cheaper than $2.20.
Sorry, but they’re not going to be rounding that final price down to save you 1¢.
In short: you’re as much a victim as everyone else.
it’s because taxes vary per state. I don’t think it’s a good one, but it is a reason
Taxes don’t vary inside a store, you idiot. There are no physical stores that straddle state lines and charge you different amounts depending on which checkout you use.
I’m going to guess you’re both an idiot and you didn’t read my second paragraph where I mentioned this specifically.
I’ve worked at a till long ago. You ring up the customer then type in how much they gave you then the machine tells you how much change to give.
It’s not a million dollar problem, it’s a few cents issue. You’ll be fine
There was a movie about this, how a few cents of rounding error moved into an account generated a lot of money. Office space.
I’d argue using cash, paper, floppies is fucking advanced and the right move.
Source - I work on tech
Mini Rant:
When you think about it software development is a relatively young profession compared to medicine, law, construction, public services, the arts, and so on. This is why modern tech kind of sucks despite being so cool, I say we are in the “Hey maybe we shouldn’t build our huts right on the river” phase of writing code, still figuring out problems that will appear mind numbingly simple in the future.
Another issue is the fact that tech builds on itself and its flaws can be painted over with abstractions, while the aforementioned professions can’t get away with being subpar for too long. So the full metaphor really is after the river floods we build on top of the ruins and claim victory because we are slightly more elevated and will take less damage during the next flood.
The secret to better tech is rebuilding everything from scratch. The internet wasn’t designed with security and bad actors in mind. Plenty of corporations are running a Frankenstein system that contains code older than most millennials, botched modernization efforts, buzzword laden over-engineered applications, and bugs that aren’t features just permanent residents in your code base.
…But there is profiteering to contend with, good code takes time, time is money, good code is expensive. “Good enough” code is easy to write, so its better for the bottom line.
In the end it really is…
Developer: “Hey the river flooded and our huts were demolished, we should move to higher ground and build there”
Corporate Leadership: “No that is too expensive, just build on the ruins and next flood we should be safer, oh also you’re laid off”
I know you didn’t ask for this, but its been on my mind for a while and I felt like this was a good time to get this out of my head haha
The secret to better tech is rebuilding everything from scratch. The internet wasn’t designed with security and bad actors in mind. Plenty of corporations are running a Frankenstein system that contains code older than most millennials, botched modernization efforts, buzzword laden over-engineered applications, and bugs that aren’t features just permanent residents in your code base.
Rebuilding everything from scratch will take ages and cost everyone a lot of money, because you have to replace all your hardware (router boxes, PC s, phones, smart watches, …), because the internet protocols are often designed into the hardware itself, and changing them fundamentally means a lot of trash. Also there is no system that guarantees that the result will have fewer issues or will not required to be succeeded by something else a couple of minutes later, because some new issue was discovered.
Also software is highly complex and need to adapt to many different scenarios, while maintaining compatibility to each other, which the other disciplines of human engineering don’t have to deal with as much, they are much more purpose driven.
It is like trying to create a universal building code (for building houses) that simultaneously works on every country on earth, hell, maybe even on multiple planets, with wildly different and constantly changing environments and is guaranteed to result in save houses. Not really possible in one shot, only possible by constantly trying to adapt. That is what software has to deal with. I am talking about fundamental software like the Linux kernel here, for example.
You cannot just start over and be better.
Enough with this American take, electronic voting works fine in Brazil, only right wingers complain about it, and the American ones also complained about their paper votes when they lose.
What does the Brazilian electronic voting system do that allows you to trust it? I’m not trying to bait or anything I know nothing about it and want to be informed.
Luckily in many European countries it is not used.
I would credit institutions like the chaos computer club and other non-profits, which where instrumental in convincing the government about the dangers. It was a difficult battle against the corporate lobbyists, and is understandable that other countries could not fight against the corporate interests or corruption and succumb to use them.
There where and still are so many issues with them, one of the most fundamental is described by Ken Thompson in his Reflections on trusting trust, which is especially effective for electronic voting machines, where no other way of verification is possible.
Enough with this American take
Huston or whereever you are, you have problem. I live on other side of the pond. More specifically in certain biggest country, where Ella Pamfilova can pull out any number she wants from remote electronic voting.
electronic voting works fine in Brazil
It works here as intended too. Wins elections for Putin’s mafia.
only right wingers complain about it
4chanland, you have another problem. Putin is right wing. And he is super happy about it.
and the American ones also complained about their paper votes when they lose.
I don’t know what Americans complain about when they loose.
Wait…wasn’t that a movie too?
I would love if we kept the floppy form factor but with SSD flash on the inside.
I loved the solid feeling of disks and that “kachunk” of the drives.
They were also easy to label!
Paper databases are a terrible system
Github uses black-and-white film. Depends. You can print qr codes or some other crazy encoding scheme.
Do you know the difference between warehouse inventory management and a database?
You didn’t say you wanted database for warehouse inventory managment. In that case paper only useful for storing append-only logs or taking snapshots.
You are probably talking about the arctic vault.
They use film for extreme archival purposes that are not representative of anything normal.
Qr codes can be great but they obviously need to interact somehow (not directly I hope) with a real database.
You are probably talking about the arctic vault.
Yes, github arctic code vault. It seems some people just don’t get it.
Qr codes can be great but they obviously need to interact somehow (not directly I hope) with a real database.
I mean QR codes as a mean of storing lots of data on paper, in a way that does not require humam or OCR for computer to read. Basically as a joke about paper databases.
How exactly is a floppy more advanced and the right move? Or fucking paper and photocopiers,/printers.
It’s like non-security tech savvy people embracing IoT devices throughout their homes - smart bulbs, smart toasters, etc - fucking disaster waiting to happen.
Keeping stuff offline with paper and floppies is exceptional SecOps. It’s obviously more work, and ease-of-use is degraded, but if we ever see real cyber warfare, having stuff on paper and/or airgapped storage is the best one can hope for
If you look a floppy disk from a weird angle, it will get a bad sector
Ahh yes, floppy disks, where if you breathe on it, you just corrupted 1.44 megabytes of data.
Cash Society isn’t a bad thing imo.
That’s what I’m saying for a long time after being in Japan a couple of times.
30 years ago, Japan was 20 years in the future, and they liked it so much, they never changed since.
